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 Anybody still support the Bush administration?

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design219
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PostSubject: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu May 22, 2008 3:53 pm

Or did you ever? If you did, or still do, please tell us what it is that makes him worth.

Just curious.

As for me, I think he will go down in history as the worst president of all time. I feel it is very sad what has happened to this nation under his leadership. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu May 22, 2008 4:55 pm

going in and getting saddam was absolutely necessary no matter how much you dislike W.

i absolutely supported him doing that and would support him to do it again.

he does talk funny and seems to have things slipping away from him. I don't know what i think anymore, but I think most popular dislike of him is just that. popular dislike.

rather, people have made him out to be a much worse president than he was through a liberally dominated media. I'm not saying he was perfect... but definitely not the worst. I think most of things that are blamed on him would have happened under any other conservative president.

what things in particular about him did you find unfavorable?

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design219
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu May 22, 2008 5:43 pm

Well, there's this unnecessary war that my children's children's children will still be paying for. Total mismanagement of said war. Complete disregard for the necessary steps needed to protect our environment. A complete loss of credibility in the world view. The economy (directly related to the first item). The lack of addressing health care affordability in the country. A complete lack of a far sighted energy policy. And there's more, but that's enough to start with.
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu May 22, 2008 6:27 pm

I voted for him both times, and still support him somewhat. I'll be voting for Obama come November though. I have been thoroughly disgusted by the Rep. party and can no longer vote for one in good conscience. Plus I like some of the Dem. agenda this time around, not that it changed, I have.
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu May 22, 2008 6:58 pm

design219 wrote:
A complete lack of a far sighted energy policy. And there's more, but that's enough to start with.

an energy policy is looking more and more important to me. I'm home and paying near 4$ a gallon right now and cannot fathom how all of you do this regularly. as for me normally i ride a bike everywhere so it doesn't affect me much and i thought it was all hubbub. but the truth is. once we hit $7/gallon (which will probably happen here soon... like a year or two) america is going to have seriously re-think itself. our infrastructure depends on oil. bikes are really not an option in a lot of cities.

it would be nice if this was being addressed. bush has tried to become less oil dependant on the mid-east but environmentalists wont let him drill.
so i dont know what i think

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Martin
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu May 22, 2008 10:44 pm

design219 wrote:
Or did you ever? If you did, or still do, please tell us what it is that makes him worth.

==I did, but I don't anymore. It is not just Iraq either. Spending is out of control and the government is just getting too big. At this point I think the guy is on cruise control, just waiting for Jan. 09.

design219 wrote:
As for me, I think he will go down in history as the worst president of all time. I feel it is very sad what has happened to this nation under his leadership.

==I agree with the last part. However, as a historian, I can't say if I agree with the first part or not. History always contains surprises. I think we will probably have to wait for the "whole story" to be told before we know how history will judge this administration. It could be many years before that happens though. Maybe past our lifetimes. Part of the problem is that it will take time for researchers to dig through all of the material and then for them to put it together. Another problem is that we don't know how things will turn out. Much of Bush's legacy will be determined by how his policies unfold over time. Like I said above, that could take many years.

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:34 am

I was all for him in Term #1, when he ran against Kerry in term #2, It was more that I voted against Kerry then for Bush, if that makes sense.

Overall I think he's done an extremely poor job domestically and foreign policy wise. No need to bring up the Iraq war and how useless that was and how costly in terms of $$ and human life.

As for candidates that we have now, I don't like either one of them. I feel Obama will look to appease those people who's life mission is to bring terrorism to our shores and McCain seems generally clueless on a number of important topics, like domestic policy.
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design219
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:47 pm

maflynn wrote:
I feel Obama will look to appease those people who's life mission is to bring terrorism to our shores

I find this attitude curious. On what do you base this belief?
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:44 am

design219 wrote:
Well, there's this unnecessary war that my children's children's children will still be paying for.
There are many ways of looking at the cost of this war in terms of % of GDP etc... that actually compare quite favorably to actions in the past. Our fathers having not fully addressed the issue prior left it up to us to remove Saddam. We're making the difficult choices now so that our kids don't have to. I feel the war was entirely necessary. 12 years of failed UN Resolutions with final call of "serious consequences for non-compliance", economic sanctions serving only to starve the Iraqi poor to death while giving other factions fodder for demonizing the West through their oppression, etc... Iraq was about much more than Iraq. China knows this. Russia knows this. Syria and Iran know this.

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Total mismanagement of said war.
It is actually quite easy to sit back and critique our management of this action and we should as the funders of it. However, the actual "war" portion of this action was an absolute success. Shock and Awe and the toppling of Saddam's regime is the standard by which all future military operations should be gauged. Who is going to predict exactly how to react to the complexities of "nation-building" amongst nothing, but hostile territory? By almost all accounts I can see and evidenced by the incredible lack of attention given to Iraq now by the media it is apparent that this operation is seeing great success. We live in a world of microwave meals and drive-thrus, online ordering, and overnight shipping. Democratizing an entire nation right smack dab in the middle of the Middle East is not McEasy. It's been five years people. Five years.

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Complete disregard for the necessary steps needed to protect our environment.
Name a President who has done more. How?

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A complete loss of credibility in the world view.
If International credibility is; "you need to back off Saddam while we fund his tyranny behind closed doors allowing competing factions to demonize you through their oppression" I couldn't care less. The International community defines the credibility of others in terms of their own interests, not ours. What can I say, it's a heavy crown.

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The economy (directly related to the first item).
We've been hearing rumors of recession for how long now? Hasn't happened. The "economy" complaint is primarily one of consumer confidence. Gas and food prices. What does the President have to do with gas and food prices and what would you do as President starting day one, to solve these??? With the media painting our current slowed economic growth in terms we haven't seen since the great depression, it's no wonder consumer confidence is low. We all knew the housing bubble would burst. This is due to laws of nature, not governance. The value of the dollar? I shudder to think what the value of the dollar might have looked like had Saddam gotten his way of moving off the US standard. *As an aside, this has helped generate a surge in U.S. exports, creating new jobs and secures existing ones. Of course, companies cutting jobs gets more attention than creating them. Unemployment is at 5.5% with favorable indicators of a drop. If it bleeds, it leads. Inflation? Well... you can't have both. 4% (including gas and food) a guagmire makes not. Unemployment? Ahh the dreamy 50's. Now those were the days... of over 6% unemployment. We've entirely lost perspective in this country IMO.


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The lack of addressing health care affordability in the country.
Like how to solve those between parent's coverage and their own? Why SCHIP is named after kids, but being used for adults? Why over 3 million children are eligible for Medicaid yet remain unenrolled? Why people choose not to have it regardless of cost?

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A complete lack of a far sighted energy policy. And there's more, but that's enough to start with.
What Administration had a more progressive energy policy? There are many reasons why we're still dependent on foreign sources of oil and it has absolutely nothing to do with Bush. Wanna get rid of the internal combustion engine? That's an awful lot of jobs. A (D) or an (I) is not going to allow this on his/her watch either. Trust me.
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:23 am

well said ebud.

Your were able to articulate ideas I've never fully understood

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:37 pm

ebuddy wrote:

There are many ways of looking at the cost of this war in terms of % of GDP etc.
Well, I guess you could look at the astronomical debt as something other than catastrophic, but I don't.

ebuddy wrote:

It is actually quite easy to sit back and critique our management of this action and we should as the funders of it.
Saddam was the target, and we eventually got him. But it was beyond stupid to fire the entire Iraqi army, and many, many advisors said so. To suddenly make thousands of armed men un-employeed and angry with the US, while leaving nobody to keep order was beyond negligent.

ebuddy wrote:

Democratizing an entire nation right smack dab in the middle of the Middle East is not McEasy.

That was another mistake, thinking a democracy could possibly work in a country culturally opposed to the concept. Just because we have a democracy doesn't mean we should impose it on the rest of the world.

ebuddy wrote:

Name a President who has done more. How?
I would say just about all of them. President George W. Bush's record on environmental issues is the worst for any President in recent memory. Policy changes that effectively roll back over 30 years of bipartisan environmental protections and side with corporate polluters has earned this president the first failing grade on League of Conservation Voters Presidential Report Card. His unprecedented neglect and hostility toward the America's environment has also earned President Bush and Vice President Cheney the top spot on LCV's Dirty Dozen list of anti-environment candidates -- the first ever designation for the Executive Branch in LCV's history.

ebuddy wrote:

If International credibility is; "you need to back off Saddam while we fund his tyranny behind closed doors allowing competing factions to demonize you through their oppression" I couldn't care less.
No, that's not what I mean, why would you say that? We have lost credibility for many reasons, not just our crazy debacle in Iraq. Our lack of respect in the world has real consequences. Of course we have to act in our nation's best interest, but the crap on the world doing so has cost us.

ebuddy wrote:

What does the President have to do with gas and food prices and what would you do as President starting day one, to solve these?
As I said, the debacle in Iraq has a strong effect on the price of gas, which has an effect on the price of food. It's easy to say we don't currently fit the definition of a recession, but we are obviously in trouble, otherwise the government would not have just sent everybody a check in a desperate attempt to elevate the situation.

ebuddy wrote:

Like how to solve those between parent's coverage and their own? Why SCHIP is named after kids, but being used for adults? Why over 3 million children are eligible for Medicaid yet remain unenrolled? Why people choose not to have it regardless of cost?
WTF? I'm talking about a comprehensive government plan to make healthcare functional and affordable to all Americans. Individual responsibility to take advantage of such a system is not something that government can control.

I'm sure we could argue this back and forth, and each cite different sources, but I think we will never see eye to eye on this subject. I'll respect your opinions, but I will probably never respect the job Bush has done as president.
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PostSubject: Re: Anybody still support the Bush administration?   Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:41 am

design219 wrote:

Well, I guess you could look at the astronomical debt as something other than catastrophic, but I don't.
I look at it in terms of something that begs perspective.

How cheap was our containment policy? A University of Chicago study showed that our continued policy of encouraging Iraqi compliance through repeated weapons inspections, disarmament, the occasional bombing, and eventual regime-change would've cost us upwards of $700 billion. What of Saddam's attempt to move off the US dollar as the standard? People complaining of the value of our dollar have no clue what this implies. What of oil prices during such a long-term action? They'd naturally sky-rocket anyway. While inaction might not be as calculable as action, I'm personally glad not to know. IMO it has become fashionable to concern ourselves with debt this election year, but our focus is askew. We face $2 trillion in additional long-term liabilities due to lack of action on Medicare and Social Security and the figure grows annually, but yet not a word on this. At least there is some appreciable long-term gain from democratizing Iraq. The remainder of waist and fraud in Washington is enough to make this issue look like penny-candy.

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Saddam was the target, and we eventually got him. But it was beyond stupid to fire the entire Iraqi army, and many, many advisors said so. To suddenly make thousands of armed men un-employeed and angry with the US, while leaving nobody to keep order was beyond negligent.
Yeah, but there's that pesky problem of knowing the insurgents from non-insurgents. You might recall there was quite a concern with arming an Iraqi military who wants you dead. Any such move had to be wrought with discipline and forethought. We didn't need military at that time, we needed civil servants and police. We needed informants and those willing to network and interpret. Arming potential enemies would've been just as stupid and you can bet a great many advisors recommended against this too.

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That was another mistake, thinking a democracy could possibly work in a country culturally opposed to the concept. Just because we have a democracy doesn't mean we should impose it on the rest of the world.
I've heard this before and I didn't buy it then either. They are no more barbaric en masse than you and I nor are they more resistant to democracy. It doesn't mean their democracy is going to look exactly like our own much like Israel's and Turkey's doesn't. The inherent peace and prosperity that goes hand in hand however is unmistakable. In a population exceeding 27 million people; believe me if they were incapable of civility and rule of law the entire region would be a powder keg, not isolated strongholds of insurgency. They want democracy, they risked life and limb to participate in it, and they're going to get it. We are the only country resourced enough to have helped them in this way. They are presently and will be even more thankful to us for it in the future.

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I would say just about all of them. President George W. Bush's record on environmental issues is the worst for any President in recent memory.
I would've thought maybe something more solid such as telling me that _____ is more polluted than 10 years ago. Did he not raise CAFE standards as much as the last President? What about our environment has worsened since Bush took office? Was it because he supports drilling in the Arctic or opposed other such environmental pets long on symbolic gesture, short on substance? Kyoto protocol? No thanks, but you can bet this has a large stake in one's "grade" on the environment.

Quote :
Policy changes that effectively roll back over 30 years of bipartisan environmental protections and side with corporate polluters has earned this president the first failing grade on League of Conservation Voters Presidential Report Card. His unprecedented neglect and hostility toward the America's environment has also earned President Bush and Vice President Cheney the top spot on LCV's Dirty Dozen list of anti-environment candidates -- the first ever designation for the Executive Branch in LCV's history.
Are you referring to the Energy Policy Act of 2003? Dems initially supported the Act, then upon pressure from environmental groups tried stopping the bill offering one of their own. Theirs? The Democratic version put up almost $2 billion for big coal companies and over $5 billion in handouts and tax cuts for the oil industry. The bill also earmarked over $20 billion for the building of an oil pipeline from Alaska to the lower 48 states. Bush's record is no worse than the previous Administration nor the Dems, but it is fashionable to loathe the man. Clinton's "salvage rider" among other things such as support for hilltop strip mining etc... show a record equally as dismal. Whether or not a committee wrought with partisanship grabbed for a pen to jot a grade at that time is meaningless. The people that grade Presidents on their bend to the environmental lobby are not impressive to me. Again I'd ask what is worse off today than in decades past?

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No, that's not what I mean, why would you say that? We have lost credibility for many reasons, not just our crazy debacle in Iraq. Our lack of respect in the world has real consequences. Of course we have to act in our nation's best interest, but the crap on the world doing so has cost us.
Other than unilateral action against Iraq, how have we crapped on the world? By allowing Chavez the voice to call our President "el diablo" in an international conference held in New York? Allowing Ahmadinejad a voice in our country as well? Canada now has a PM more friendly to us, France has a President more friendly to us, and they will all be friendly to us and very interested in participating in Iraq's new democracy. Make no mistake. There's money in it. People will judge your country's credibility in terms of their own interests. This should not be as indicative of our policy as it is theirs. Personally, I don't think there's much the world's super power could do to be loved. China is growing. How is the world's love for them expanding?

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As I said, the debacle in Iraq has a strong effect on the price of gas, which has an effect on the price of food. It's easy to say we don't currently fit the definition of a recession, but we are obviously in trouble, otherwise the government would not have just sent everybody a check in a desperate attempt to elevate the situation.
Inaction in Iraq would've had a strong impact on the value of our dollar, oil price increases, and gas price/food price increases. This propping up of ethanol is one major problem. Did a prior administration do anything about this or just leave the issue for the next President? The government sent us a check in 2001 as well and yet there was no recession at that time. I thought it was a silly "bipartisan" effort that was again long on symbolism, short on substance. Our economy is due to the laws of nature, not necessarily governance. If only we could enjoy another .com boom. "obviously in trouble" doesn't mean anything. Unemployment is comparably very low. Exports very high. GDP is strong. Gas and food are up which affects consumer confidence... period. The housing market was inflated, it had to come down. Either you want a stronger dollar and risk inflation or a weaker dollar risking recession.

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WTF? I'm talking about a comprehensive government plan to make healthcare functional and affordable to all Americans. Individual responsibility to take advantage of such a system is not something that government can control.
Good point. There is little the government can control, but there are some predictable outcomes. I don't want to see the "healthcare lockbox" get formed and raided for a fishery in California, a bridge to nowhere, and additional fodder for political debates in the decades to come. How do we get from, "the government is horrible on the environment, incompetent at war" (and others statements on dishonesty, greed, and deceit) to "Let's give 'em our healthcare too!" ??? Why is it we'd move away from privatization while other countries are running away from public health care? WTF is right.

Quote :
I'm sure we could argue this back and forth, and each cite different sources, but I think we will never see eye to eye on this subject. I'll respect your opinions, but I will probably never respect the job Bush has done as president.
This is likely true.
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