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 Is drinking alcohol bad

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maflynn
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PostSubject: Is drinking alcohol bad   Tue May 20, 2008 8:42 pm

I have my opinions on this matter but I'm also interested in hearing from you guys.

First the Bible condemns drunkenness
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and strong drink is a brawler;
whoever goes astray by them is not wise.

Isaiah 28:1
Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim's drunkards,
to the fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley—
to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine!

Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16-21
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God

The Bible is quiet on the fact of drinking them just over indulging. Many conservative Christians abstain completely from alcohol. I've been to a number of churches that feel this way. The only chapters that I find close to this are as follows:
1 Corinthians 8:13
Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

I can see that it may be wise to avoid this to prevent a brother to fall into sin.


Thoughts, opinions.
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rogermugs
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Tue May 20, 2008 9:07 pm

nono... you're missing a bunch. not the least of which:


1 Timothy 5:23
23(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

you have to realize back then there was no such thing as grape juice. thats a new invention. if you had grapes back in the day (really until just over a hundred years ago 1869 see wikipedia grape juice) you ended up with wine, not grapejuice... stopping the fermentation is a new prospect... so anytime they put grapes in a grape skin you had wine. there's a buttload of talk of wineskins in the bible yo.

there can be no argument against alcohol altogether when jesus' first miracle was water into wine (and yes we know it was not grape juice) at a serious wedding feast.

just my thoughts, tho drunkenness definitely is frowned upon eh.

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Laminar
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Tue May 20, 2008 9:26 pm

Alcohol is great. But like most things, it's best in moderation.

I waited until my 21st birthday to have my first beer. In the year since then I've only been drunk a handful of times, with mixed results. In some cases, it was off of crappy beer with crappy people and it wasn't much fun at all. In other cases, it helped me relax and have a ton more fun than I would have had I been sober.

The key word in most of the quoted passages is "drunkenness," which I take to be a pattern or habit of being drunk, it is by no means condemning occasional drinking. But with that, you also have to consider the people you're with and their vices. If a friend of your has struggled with alcoholism in the past, it's downright thoughtless to take him or her to a bar for a night out...even though it's not morally wrong for you to be there, that may not be the case for your friend, and respecting that is important.
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design219
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Tue May 20, 2008 9:39 pm

Yoj shhhokulllnnt postt awh hw==yoo hafve dtanknen too m c uh a shd.


Smile ;; :"::: [;[';kl :] Smile) Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


Last edited by design219 on Tue May 20, 2008 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : itd'[s tooo fot teh slillllyh fadcessss ssso s ssa ssaaaa@!!!!)
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Tue May 20, 2008 10:30 pm

In a nutshell:

Okay to drink alcohol, not okay to get drunk.

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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Wed May 21, 2008 9:27 am

Interesting comments, thanks guys.

Personally I have no problems with having a beer. I was curious to see if there were any other opinions on the matter.

Like I said, I've been involved with some churches that basically disagree with that assessment. I respect their position and their desire to live a life glorifying the Lord, they choose to include abstaining from alcohol as part of that effort. You cannot fault them, and I don't Smile
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rogermugs
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Wed May 21, 2008 11:30 am

when i joined the ministry i'm in now I had to sign a waiver that said i'd be willing to not drink or smoke for the duration of my time in the ministry. I was bummed, but very willing to give them up to do what I do. Then i found out they just needed to make sure I was willing if I had to... they've never asked me not to (just to be responsible), and a beer with my buddies is part of my minitry.

not to mention the occasional pipe smoke. Where i am, if I didn't drink I think it would affect my witness as a christian (like it might in germany or something).

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Laminar
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Wed May 21, 2008 9:46 pm

Nathan wrote:
In a nutshell:

Okay to drink alcohol, not okay to get drunk.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think alcohol should not have a vice on one's life, but I don't believe that my being drunk 4 or 5 times in the past year is by any means sinful. Sure, alcohol can cloud one's judgement and make it easier to sin, but I never got to that point.
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Wed May 21, 2008 9:48 pm

On a semi-related note, a few friends and I started up a ministry for high school age kids in a nearby town last fall. Each time we met as leaders to plan the next week for the kids, alcohol was required. I've been in positions where I dread all of the meetings and stuff that comes with ministry, but in this case I always looked forward to meeting and sharing a brew or two with my friends.
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brassplayersrockjr
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Wed May 21, 2008 11:27 pm

hi lamy!!! *waves with a smile* don't abuse my macnn account to badly.
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design219
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Thu May 22, 2008 11:18 am

Looks like at least 4 from MacNN right now. Me, Brass, Laminar and ebuddy. Probably will be more.
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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Thu May 22, 2008 1:03 pm

Laminar wrote:
Nathan wrote:
In a nutshell:

Okay to drink alcohol, not okay to get drunk.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think alcohol should not have a vice on one's life, but I don't believe that my being drunk 4 or 5 times in the past year is by any means sinful. Sure, alcohol can cloud one's judgement and make it easier to sin, but I never got to that point.

I disagree, and I believe you are in error. Take Galatians 5:21 which I have quoted above. Using your logic, its ok to bow down to an idol on a few occasions, or have a couple of fits of rage instead of a pattern of fits of rage. Besides getting drunk 4 or 5 times a year is a pattern of drunkenness by your own definition. The Bible shows by example in the OT the folly of getting drunk and by clear instruction in the NT.

I'm not trying to sound like some sort of holier then thou SOB, but I did want to point out the view that getting drunk is what most Christians accept as what this passage (and others) are condemning, not a long drawn out pattern of alcohol abuse
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design219
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Thu May 22, 2008 3:46 pm

maflynn wrote:
or have a couple of fits of rage instead of a pattern of fits of rage.

I think people expel a lot of effort to conceal their true nature when they are not proud of it. Getting drunk breaks down that effort and (in my opinion) we see more of a person's REAL nature. If a person is a "mean drunk", that is probably their repressed nature, and that, more than the drinking problem, is what they should address.

I know that's not addressing the subject, but just thought I'd throw that in.
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Thu May 22, 2008 5:00 pm

yea its something i wonder about quite a bit.
once and while when i've had a bit too much with a friend, the Lord shows up in a unique way, and i have a hard time imagining that it was sin when it becomes a life-altering conversation...

but that said. most of the time I feel pretty convicted about what i've done if i drink too much or even sit and debate for a while weather I want that one more that would probably begin to alter my judgement (and i'm a lightweight so thats often number 2 or 3)

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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Thu May 22, 2008 5:20 pm

design219 wrote:
maflynn wrote:
or have a couple of fits of rage instead of a pattern of fits of rage.

I think people expel a lot of effort to conceal their true nature when they are not proud of it. Getting drunk breaks down that effort and (in my opinion) we see more of a person's REAL nature. If a person is a "mean drunk", that is probably their repressed nature, and that, more than the drinking problem, is what they should address.

You're right, but that's one of the Joy's of being a Christian, the Lord provides the Holy Spirit to live in you and help you change from the inside out. I've seen a number of "mean drunks" turn to the Lord and completely turn their lives around and be a more positive, loving person.
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Laminar
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Fri May 23, 2008 12:03 am

maflynn wrote:
Laminar wrote:
Nathan wrote:
In a nutshell:

Okay to drink alcohol, not okay to get drunk.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think alcohol should not have a vice on one's life, but I don't believe that my being drunk 4 or 5 times in the past year is by any means sinful. Sure, alcohol can cloud one's judgement and make it easier to sin, but I never got to that point.

I disagree, and I believe you are in error. Take Galatians 5:21 which I have quoted above. Using your logic, its ok to bow down to an idol on a few occasions, or have a couple of fits of rage instead of a pattern of fits of rage.

Not entirely. Bowing down to an idol even once is wrong. Going into a fit of rage even once is wrong. Getting drunk once does not mean that alcohol has a vice on my life, which is how I've interpreted "drunkenness." If you interpret "drunkenness" to mean simply being under the influence of alcohol, then yes, it would be wrong, but in the context of the verses, I don't believe you can say without question that your interpretation is correct. The passage you quoted from Proverbs makes it pretty clear that the issue being discussed is not alcohol, but going astray because of it.

Quote :

Besides getting drunk 4 or 5 times a year is a pattern of drunkenness by your own definition.

I don't believe that I ever defined "pattern." If you define pattern as "happens more than once," then yes, I have a pattern of getting drunk. But alcohol by no means has a vice on my life. I am not dependent on it. I might have one beer a week, and I rarely get to the point where I can't legally drive.

Quote :
The Bible shows by example in the OT the folly of getting drunk and by clear instruction in the NT.

I agree that alcohol is very dangerous. It can lead to a lot of problems for the overindulger and those around him or her, but I can assure you that I have no such problems with it. Simply being wise about where, how much, and with whom you consume makes it much easier to make good decisions.

Quote :

I'm not trying to sound like some sort of holier then thou SOB, but I did want to point out the view that getting drunk is what most Christians accept as what this passage (and others) are condemning, not a long drawn out pattern of alcohol abuse

I appreciate your tone and civility, but I'd also like to point out that at certain points in history, Christians believed the Bible told them the world was flat, that slavery was okay, that the earth is 6000 years old (uh-oh, did I just say that?), etc., so I take what the church as a whole believes with a grain of salt.
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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Fri May 23, 2008 7:40 am

Laminar wrote:
Not entirely. Bowing down to an idol even once is wrong. Going into a fit of rage even once is wrong. Getting drunk once does not mean that alcohol has a vice on my life, which is how I've interpreted "drunkenness." If you interpret "drunkenness" to mean simply being under the influence of alcohol, then yes, it would be wrong, but in the context of the verses, I don't believe you can say without question that your interpretation is correct. The passage you quoted from Proverbs makes it pretty clear that the issue being discussed is not alcohol, but going astray because of it.
I'm not really going to argue the point, its not like we're dealing with sexual immorality or heresy besides whom am I to condemn you when I have plenty of failings.

I'll say this: That list that I quoted that condemns drunkenness (and other such lists in the NT) is included in behavior that is sinful to do even once, which you seem to agree with. Within the context of the scriptures and the natural inclination to understanding those verses would be to consider this. If its wrong to do the stuff mentioned just before it, and just after it, why would it be ok to get drunk even once? To put it another way, it is sinful to be envious and to participate in an orgy but its ok to get drunk 3 or 4 times a year . That really does seem skewed to me.

Quote :

I appreciate your tone and civility, but I'd also like to point out that at certain points in history, Christians believed the Bible told them the world was flat, that slavery was okay, that the earth is 6000 years old (uh-oh, did I just say that?), etc., so I take what the church as a whole believes with a grain of salt.

Thanks Smile

Let me dissect your contentions in order.

The Bible says nothing about the world being flat. That was Man's own interpretation. Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7 for instance. Look even in our enlightened age. Sunrise occurred at 4:15am this morning, but does that mean we believe the sun revolves around the earth? Why wouldn’t we use a more accurate term?

Slavery is not approved in the Bible and this has always been one of the marks that critics of the Bible use. Rather it has allowances to treat slaves humanely in fact Deuteronomy makes it clear that God did not want Israelites to remain in slavery but rather freed after 7 years. In the NT, slavery references are in context to the times. It makes no such proclamation that slavery was okay. Finally the whole slavery issues in the western civilization ended because Christians saw that it was wrong.

I’m one of those people that take a very literal view of the Bible and with that said, the Hebrew word “yom” used the creation account in Genesis can be translated for a 24 hour period or an epic or an undefined long time, its not completely clear in the context of the creation which one it is.

You raise another issue by inference of the creation remark. You need to take the Bible as a complete work of God, penned by Man yes, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. 2nd Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” So that means even the accounts of supernatural phenomenon such as the creation are scripture and God-breathed. If you start rejecting portions of the Bible because they don’t make sense then you’ll have nothing left. For instance, Genesis details the creation and that God spoke the world into being and nearly every book in the Bible has some super-natural occurrence that cannot be explained which is why faith is so important.

Is the world 6,000 years old, maybe, is it 6 gazillion years old, maybe. I really have no idea and to be honest how does that impact my relationship with Jesus. I accept on faith that God spoke the universe into existence whether it took 6 days or 6 epics.

I kind of got off on a tangent there Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Fri May 23, 2008 5:17 pm

I think that if we were all in the same room discussing this we would come to pretty close conclusions about what "drunkeness" actually is.

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PostSubject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad   Sat May 24, 2008 11:53 am

maflynn wrote:

I'm not really going to argue the point, its not like we're dealing with sexual immorality
[

I was actually considering starting a thread on that to really get these boards going.

Quote :

I'll say this: That list that I quoted that condemns drunkenness (and other such lists in the NT) is included in behavior that is sinful to do even once, which you seem to agree with. Within the context of the scriptures and the natural inclination to understanding those verses would be to consider this. If its wrong to do the stuff mentioned just before it, and just after it, why would it be ok to get drunk even once? To put it another way, it is sinful to be envious and to participate in an orgy but its ok to get drunk 3 or 4 times a year . That really does seem skewed to me.

It's my view that God does what He does for good reasons. We're not to bow down to idols because that involves putting something or someone above God. We're not to participate in orgies because God created an appropriate (and arguably more satisfying) context for sex. By this same logic I see God condemning drunkenness because it's an addictive behavior that can lead to all kind of trouble in someone's life.

Quote :

Thanks Smile

Let me dissect your contentions in order.

The Bible says nothing about the world being flat. That was Man's own interpretation. Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7 for instance. Look even in our enlightened age. Sunrise occurred at 4:15am this morning, but does that mean we believe the sun revolves around the earth? Why wouldn’t we use a more accurate term?

Slavery is not approved in the Bible and this has always been one of the marks that critics of the Bible use. Rather it has allowances to treat slaves humanely in fact Deuteronomy makes it clear that God did not want Israelites to remain in slavery but rather freed after 7 years. In the NT, slavery references are in context to the times. It makes no such proclamation that slavery was okay. Finally the whole slavery issues in the western civilization ended because Christians saw that it was wrong.

I agree with what you're saying. My point is that at times in history, the larger church body was incredibly wrong in its interpretation of scripture, so the fact that "most Christians" believe something does not necessarily mean it's dogma.

Quote :

I’m one of those people that take a very literal view of the Bible and with that said, the Hebrew word “yom” used the creation account in Genesis can be translated for a 24 hour period or an epic or an undefined long time, its not completely clear in the context of the creation which one it is.

You raise another issue by inference of the creation remark. You need to take the Bible as a complete work of God, penned by Man yes, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. 2nd Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” So that means even the accounts of supernatural phenomenon such as the creation are scripture and God-breathed. If you start rejecting portions of the Bible because they don’t make sense then you’ll have nothing left. For instance, Genesis details the creation and that God spoke the world into being and nearly every book in the Bible has some super-natural occurrence that cannot be explained which is why faith is so important.

Is the world 6,000 years old, maybe, is it 6 gazillion years old, maybe. I really have no idea and to be honest how does that impact my relationship with Jesus. I accept on faith that God spoke the universe into existence whether it took 6 days or 6 epics.

With this, I agree wholeheartedly.
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