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 healing and jesus and our prayers...

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rogermugs
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PostSubject: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:14 am

So I was just thinking about this today and curious about your thoughts...

It seems like when Jesus was on earth he was happy to, and excited about healing everyone who came to him. (maybe there are people he didn't heal I dont know, but the account sure seems to be that if the person came to him with enough faith to seek healing then he healed them).

so why doesn't he heal everyone who asks now?

is it because when he did the healing in person there was no question as to who would be glorified? that is, now when we pray for someone maybe we are seeking our own glory...

or is there another reason?

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bibledude
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:33 pm

This is a great question, and one that I have considered a great deal myself. My son (now 5 years old) was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes when he was 17-months old. Even since then I have prayed earnestly for his healing, and I believe that God certainly can heal him. But every time I have to give him insulin injections I realize that God has chosen not to for whatever reason. So there are two things that I have had to reconcile in my life with all of this...

(1) Even if He never heals my son, then I will still lift Him up as my God. This is the same issue that Shadrack, Meschack and Abednego had to deal with when they were about to be thrown into the fire. They knew that God could save them, but they boldly declaired that "even if He does not...." God is still God, even when He chooses not to. Unfortunately, many people forget this, and grow bitter...

(2) Maybe the miracle is not in his individual healing, but in the collective healing when we find a cure. I have been relentless over the last several years in working with the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation to raise money and awareness for finding a cure. I also just got selected to join the local chapter's Board of Directors, on which they want me to focus on lobbying with the government for continued funding to support research for a cure. This is a position that I never would have been in had my son been miraculously healed. My heart now is to see ALL people with this disease "healed". Which is the great glory? My individual healing, or having an impact on the collective healing of all, and eradicating the disease from the face of the earth.

It certainly is difficult to deal with the times when God does not heal, but the bottom line is that it doesn't change who He is in any way. It only changes our self-centered perception of who he is...

Dan
http://www.youtube.com/WalkForSamuel
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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:56 pm

rogermugs wrote:
It seems like when Jesus was on earth he was happy to, and excited about healing everyone who came to him. (maybe there are people he didn't heal I dont know, but the account sure seems to be that if the person came to him with enough faith to seek healing then he healed them).

so why doesn't he heal everyone who asks now?
He didn't heal the Apostle Paul and if anyone had reason to be healed it was him. He was on a mission, to spread the gospel to the gentiles. Having the thorn in his side one could image that it could slow him down

Quote :

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

I believe the reason God doesn't heal people is so that we would have to rely on him and his Grace. If everyone got healed how would we learn to trust in God and to rely on him if we only treat him like some sort of bank account to withdraw miracles when we need then.

Also when Jesus walked the earth he didn't heal the people to ease their suffering as much as to glorify God and validate who he was. The same can be said when Peter healed the begger by the temple gate.

The miracle was the means, not the end. In every case the healing was to help propagate the gospel and/or validate the messengers. Today we have it backwards we expect the gospel to give us the ability to heal so we can be better off, instead of using God's power to expand his kingdom.
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bibledude
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:58 pm

Hmmm... maflynn is wise.... the force is strong with this one...


I agree completely!
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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:43 pm

bibledude wrote:
Hmmm... maflynn is wise.... the force is strong with this one...


I agree completely!

Star wars fan - ay

Me too Smile
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rogermugs
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:07 am

yea.. you both make good points...

bibledude - why don't there seem to be more documented things in the gospels about when Jesus didn't perform a miraculous healing because it was for a greater glory? seems like there had to be situations back then too... but you're making a good point...

maflynn... - thats a good point... but i wonder if he had had the same thorn in his flesh while jesus was still around (in the flesh) and had seen him outside of jerusalem - for example - if jesus would have healed him then...

Paul is a good example, but he (it seems) never met jesus in the flesh until after jesus had died and risen again, which I would argue is the same boat we're in... and my question is along the lines of when he was still around...

-
p.s. i had a friend in high school who would go to the grocery store, when the cashier told him the total was $50 he would wave his hand in front of the cashier's face like obi one kenobi and say, "it is $30". the cashier was never sure what to do... then would say "no... its 50," my friend would repeat the hand wave with two fingers raised and say "$30"... this always made the cashier crazy but I got a good laugh...

the force was weak with him...

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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:44 am

rogermugs wrote:
maflynn... - thats a good point... but i wonder if he had had the same thorn in his flesh while jesus was still around (in the flesh) and had seen him outside of jerusalem - for example - if jesus would have healed him then...

Paul is a good example, but he (it seems) never met jesus in the flesh until after jesus had died and risen again, which I would argue is the same boat we're in... and my question is along the lines of when he was still around...
Paul's thorn in side. We really don't know what that is, though some speculate that its blindness or sight problems related to the stoning he received in Iconium
see Acts 14:19-20 and he received the thorn because he was taken up in heaven and so unspeakable things. In order for him not to be conceited he was given this thorn to rely on God.

Another person (more contemporary) to consider who did not get healed was Joni Erickson Tada. She would most definitely not have the same ministry if she was not injured in that diving accident that left her crippled.


Another thing, you seem to be making a distinction of when Jesus walked the earth and after his ressurection. I don't think there should be such a distinction. When he was walking the earth, he had cast aside his Godhood and relied on God the father for his miracles. All those who call on Jesus as their savior has the Holy Spirit in them. It matters not if Jesus was here on earth or is now in heaven. Healing in the NT always had a purpose other then easing the suffering of the person.

Just my $.02
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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:45 am

rogermugs wrote:
maflynn... - thats a good point... but i wonder if he had had the same thorn in his flesh while jesus was still around (in the flesh) and had seen him outside of jerusalem - for example - if jesus would have healed him then...

Paul is a good example, but he (it seems) never met jesus in the flesh until after jesus had died and risen again, which I would argue is the same boat we're in... and my question is along the lines of when he was still around...
Paul's thorn in side. We really don't know what that is, though some speculate that its blindness or sight problems related to the stoning he received in Iconium
see Acts 14:19-20 and he received the thorn because he was taken up in heaven and so unspeakable things. In order for him not to be conceited he was given this thorn to rely on God.

Another person (more contemporary) to consider who did not get healed was Joni Erickson Tada. She would most definitely not have the same ministry if she was not injured in that diving accident that left her crippled.

Another thing, you seem to be making a distinction of when Jesus walked the earth and after his ressurection. I don't think there should be such a distinction. When he was walking the earth, he had cast aside his Godhood and relied on God the father for his miracles. All those who call on Jesus as their savior has the Holy Spirit in them. It matters not if Jesus was here on earth or is now in heaven. Healing in the NT always had a purpose other then easing the suffering of the person.

Just my $.02
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bibledude
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:29 am

Quote :
bibledude - why don't there seem to be more documented things in the gospels about when Jesus didn't perform a miraculous healing because it was for a greater glory? seems like there had to be situations back then too... but you're making a good point...

mugs...
Great question. I'm not in a spot at the moment to look up the exact references, but I am fairly certain that Jesus did not heal everyone all of the time anyway.

I've also been studying the Gospel of Mark lately and recall the record of when Jesus was rejected at Nazareth in chapter 6 (also in Matthew 13 and Luke 4). In particular I'm referring to the part where it says that Jesus could not do 'mighty works' there, and only laid hands on a few people and healed them. And it seems that this was due to their unbelief...

I can identify...
Getting back to the scenario with my son, I know that I struggle with unbelief myself sometimes. If I am being honest, I don't know that I really believe that God can heal my son. I like to think that I believe, and I say that I believe, but deep in my heart I know that I can pray for my sons healing, but still have to give him an insulin shot.

I remember one time just before it was time for his shots, we prayed that God would heal him. Being barely 2 years old, he threw up his hands and said "horray! no more shots!" Then we told him, "oh no, we still have to give you the shots."

I still struggle with this...
I know that many have 'had faith' before, and let their children die in the process. Can I give my child insulin injections, and truly have faith? I question my own belief somethime. Not in God as being God, but sometime whether He can (or will) heal him. I think sometimes I limit what I think God can do, simply because I don't have the courage to have faith.

My point is that while many say that they have faith, I question sometimes whether we really do have faith. Faith takes a GREAT deal of courage, and I think that quite often our courage is lacking.

When Peter and John healed the crippled man on their way to the temple, they told him to get up and walk. At some point, the man had to take an action that was contrary to what he knew his situation to be. Now trying to stand up is maybe lower risk than withholding insulin shots, but the bottom line is that the faith to be healed requires action contrary to common sense, and that's where the courage comes in...


Sorry for going on so long.......
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rogermugs
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:50 pm

maflynn
- "Another thing, you seem to be making a distinction of when Jesus walked the earth and after his ressurection." - i am making this distinction... i'm saying it seems like while he was physically on earth he was much more willing to heal people... after his resurrection is still "now" and thats what i dont understand...


bibledude

i have a friend who has diabetes and REALLY thought he'd be healed... he went off insulin shots several times at the urging of those who prayed for him for healing... and everytime it was life-threatening..

i cant imagine something quite that close to home...

so to me just taking the action, while it may demonstrate faith, may not be faith enough. and faith may not be all that we need.. we have to rely on the Lord's will... thats why i'm so confused... while jesus was on earth it SEEMED like his will to heal everyone...

but the example of him being rejected in his home town is a good point... he was unable to do miracles because of the unbelief...

hmm... i'll have to keep chewing on this.
but thanks for the answers...

sorry for my hiatus, the forum has slowed to a drip...

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maflynn
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:26 am

rogermugs wrote:
maflynn
- "Another thing, you seem to be making a distinction of when Jesus walked the earth and after his ressurection." - i am making this distinction... i'm saying it seems like while he was physically on earth he was much more willing to heal people... after his resurrection is still "now" and thats what i dont understand...
I was making a distinction. While Jesus was here before his resurrection he used miracles for a specific purpose. That purpose went away when he rose from the dead. As I previously wrote, he healed people to validate who he was. There was no need for that after his resurrection.

Do healings occur today, sure, I have no doubt. Do they occur in a church auditorum with a faith healer and thousands lining up. I kind of doubt it. My point is that healing was a means not the end, faith healing services tend to be the end and not the means

Just my $.02
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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:05 am

maflynn wrote:
rogermugs wrote:
maflynn
- "Another thing, you seem to be making a distinction of when Jesus walked the earth and after his ressurection." - i am making this distinction... i'm saying it seems like while he was physically on earth he was much more willing to heal people... after his resurrection is still "now" and thats what i dont understand...
I was making a distinction. While Jesus was here before his resurrection he used miracles for a specific purpose. That purpose went away when he rose from the dead. As I previously wrote, he healed people to validate who he was. There was no need for that after his resurrection.

Do healings occur today, sure, I have no doubt. Do they occur in a church auditorum with a faith healer and thousands lining up. I kind of doubt it. My point is that healing was a means not the end, faith healing services tend to be the end and not the means

Just my $.02

okay... now i think i understand... and maybe this is the answer i was looking for... i dont know.

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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:27 am

p.s.

" 7In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.  8Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered." - hebrews 5:7&8

this might be an answer... his reverence...

but also in the commentary i'm reading on hebrews I thought it interesting that it said that jesus asked to be spared, and called out for mercy on the cross... both unanswered prayers because they were not God's plan...

hm...

that might be a good example and answer as well..

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PostSubject: Re: healing and jesus and our prayers...   Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:23 am

great conversation... I have nothing new to add, but I have enjoyed participating and following this thread...
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