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 I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic

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rogermugs
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PostSubject: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Fri May 09, 2008 4:42 pm

thats pretty much all i have to say about it
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Fri May 09, 2008 8:17 pm

rogermugs (admin) wrote:
thats pretty much all i have to say about it

What is a heresy according to Scripture? How does praying in tongues fit the bill?
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Fri May 09, 2008 9:38 pm

okay... first of all... i dont believe that at all.. i just wanted to kick off the forum with something a tid bit juicy...


second of all... what biblically defines a heresy? hmm... gonna have to go with galations here 1:8&9

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.  As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

so maybe tongues or not cant be heresy, although i'm sure this definition can be broadened...
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PostSubject: hmmm   Sat May 10, 2008 12:12 am

I think Chris Tilling speaks in tongues...
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 10:40 am

Geoff wrote:
I think Chris Tilling speaks in tongues...

is that a reason to do it? or to think its heretical?
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PostSubject: necessary heresies   Sat May 10, 2008 12:58 pm

heretics don't indulge in heresies just to piss off the orthodox. when might speaking in tongues make sense? when might the outcome of speaking in tongues be more adventageous than the outcome of not speaking in tongues?


Last edited by scott gray on Sat May 10, 2008 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : poor spelling skills)
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 1:08 pm

scott gray wrote:
heretics don't indulge in heresies just to piss off the orthodox. when might speaking in tongues make sense? when might the outcome of speaking in tongues be more adventageous than the outcome of not speaking in tongues?

for me, praying in tongues is what helps me to pray always. There are a lot of time where i'm at my wits end... i want to pray but I cannot focus either because I'm angry or stressed out or have just used all the words I can think of.

tongues helps me to continue praying, assuming the Lord is praying the right things through me.

also... scott. can you help us understand the argument for why NOT to pray in tongues?
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 1:22 pm

i find the lord's prayer is another of those 'what should i do when i can't think of anything to say' responses.

i can think of occasions where praying in tongues would not be advantageous, but not a general principle making it a 'heresy' against an 'orthodoxy.' at least, not in any way that matters.

peace--

scott
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 5:36 pm

I'm glad you didn't mean it, unless you are referring to Chris Tilling's "tongues".
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 9:37 pm

rogermugs wrote:
okay... first of all... i dont believe that at all.. i just wanted to kick off the forum with something a tid bit juicy...


second of all... what biblically defines a heresy? hmm... gonna have to go with galations here 1:8&9

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.  As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

so maybe tongues or not cant be heresy, although i'm sure this definition can be broadened...

It seems to me that any teaching that undermines the sufficiency of the work of Christ at Calvary, deny his true nature, the resurrection, his second coming, is a heresy.
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 9:56 pm

tc wrote:

It seems to me that any teaching that undermines the sufficiency of the work of Christ at Calvary, deny his true nature, the resurrection, his second coming, is a heresy.

good call
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 10:03 pm

oh, tc--

as a postmodern thinker, you've given me half a dozen presuppositions that need challenging and unpacking! meat for the postmodern table! bless you.

where shall we begin?

scott
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 10:11 pm

scott gray wrote:
oh, tc--

as a postmodern thinker, you've given me half a dozen presuppositions that need challenging and unpacking! meat for the postmodern table! bless you.

where shall we begin?

scott

anywhere I beg. Its all so fascinating to me
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sat May 10, 2008 11:18 pm

first--

i challenge. it's my nature. don't take offense.

challenge back. question my presuppositions. i learn more that way.

tc, you said: "It seems to me that any teaching that undermines the sufficiency of the work of Christ at Calvary, deny his true nature, the resurrection, his second coming, is a heresy."

1. i'm going to assume the 'work of christ at calvary' is primarily salvific; is this correct? (the phrase seems like jargon; is it associated with a particular dogma or denomination?) if it is more than salvific for you, what else is it?

2. 'sufficiency' implies 'it is enough.' am i correct? what constitutes 'enoughness' for you regarding the work of christ at calvary? how would someone undermine this 'enoughness' in orthodoxy or orthopraxy?

3. what is christ's 'true nature' for you? it seems to me there are as many answers to this as there are christians.

4. is to deny the resurrection for you soley a matter of belief (orthodoxy)? or, how is it possible to deny the resurrection in praxis?

5. there are as many models of expectation for the second coming as there are christians, too. what is your expectation of christ's second coming?

6. and back to the beginning. what do you feel is a 'teaching?' in particular, how is a teaching related to indoctrination, training, and education?

there's my (first) half dozen.

peace--

scott
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 11, 2008 12:00 am

rogermugs wrote:
Geoff wrote:
I think Chris Tilling speaks in tongues...

is that a reason to do it? or to think its heretical?

Well, unless Paul was a heretic, its not heretical..
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 11, 2008 10:50 pm

Geoff wrote:
rogermugs wrote:
Geoff wrote:
I think Chris Tilling speaks in tongues...

is that a reason to do it? or to think its heretical?

Well, unless Paul was a heretic, its not heretical..

i'm sure i can think of something paul did that you wouldn't do today because it would be considered wrong or weird.... i just cant quite grasp it...
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 11, 2008 11:06 pm

rogermugs wrote:
Geoff wrote:
rogermugs wrote:
Geoff wrote:
I think Chris Tilling speaks in tongues...

is that a reason to do it? or to think its heretical?

Well, unless Paul was a heretic, its not heretical..

i'm sure i can think of something paul did that you wouldn't do today because it would be considered wrong or weird.... i just cant quite grasp it...

everything in its context my friend..

Paul suggests that he "Speaks in tongues" more than anyone (as if it is a good thing), but then suggests that it is something between the believer and God, and has to benefit to the congregation, and should be kept as something between believer and God ("because remember when you were still pagans, you spoke ecstatically then..." - it also doesnt prove ones spirituality, ones ability to "agape" is the measure of Spirituality)
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 11, 2008 11:26 pm

Geoff wrote:


everything in its context my friend..

Paul suggests that he "Speaks in tongues" more than anyone (as if it is a good thing), but then suggests that it is something between the believer and God, and has to benefit to the congregation, and should be kept as something between believer and God ("because remember when you were still pagans, you spoke ecstatically then..." - it also doesnt prove ones spirituality, ones ability to "agape" is the measure of Spirituality)

is that what 1 Corinthians 14:18 is saying? I always understood it as "I thank God more than all of you THAT I speak tongues" but it never occurred to me it might be read that way...
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 11, 2008 11:27 pm

Interesting. I've always understood it how Geoff implies.

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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 11, 2008 11:40 pm

I've looked at it from several angles... I've been to a church where everyone pranced around babbling gibberish on a sunday morning as a matter of course, and I have been convinced at a later stage that this was wrong, and tongues were no more.
Since then I have done an exegetical paper at seminary (although a few years ago now) on "the Corinthian problem, 1 Cor 12-14)". So, my understanding is a result mostly of that paper, tempered with my own experience.

My friend Glenn Peoples wrote this paper (while we were studying at Bible College together), its quite interesting:

http://www.beretta-online.com/articles/theology/1cor14.html
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Mon May 12, 2008 5:19 pm

scott gray wrote:
first--

i challenge. it's my nature. don't take offense.

Scott, I too love a challenge. Basketball

Quote :
challenge back. question my presuppositions. i learn more that way.
Fine with me.

Quote :
tc, you said: "It seems to me that any teaching that undermines the sufficiency of the work of Christ at Calvary, deny his true nature, the resurrection, his second coming, is a heresy."

1. i'm going to assume the 'work of christ at calvary' is primarily salvific; is this correct? (the phrase seems like jargon; is it associated with a particular dogma or denomination?) if it is more than salvific for you, what else is it?

No particular denomination dogma, I'm simply going with Paul and others' interpretation of Christ at Calvary.

For example, Peter says Christ went to Calvary to bring us back to God (1 Pet 3:18).

Quote :
2. 'sufficiency' implies 'it is enough.' am i correct? what constitutes 'enoughness' for you regarding the work of christ at calvary? how would someone undermine this 'enoughness' in orthodoxy or orthopraxy?

Why not enough for both orthodoxy and orthopraxy? Our lifestyle must be properly informed by our orthodoxy. I don't think you'll disagree with that.

Quote :
3. what is christ's 'true nature' for you? it seems to me there are as many answers to this as there are christians.

If we go with Scripture, then we'll affirm his divinity as expressed in his being Messiah; we'll affirm his incarnational distinctive; simply put, we'll affirm his God-man.

Quote :
4. is to deny the resurrection for you soley a matter of belief (orthodoxy)? or, how is it possible to deny the resurrection in praxis?

To affirm the resurrection according to Paul results in hope, and such hope informs our praxis.

Paul is definitely for orthodoxy and orthopraxis: "If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die'" (1 Cor 15:32, TNIV).

Quote :
5. there are as many models of expectation for the second coming as there are christians, too. what is your expectation of christ's second coming?

He's coming to take me to glory. Isn't that the blessed hope according to Paul (Titus 2:13)?

Quote :
6. and back to the beginning. what do you feel is a 'teaching?' in particular, how is a teaching related to indoctrination, training, and education?

there's my (first) half dozen.

peace--

scott

It's so easy to be indocrinated. I think a person needs to go to Scripture and determine the essentials from the nonessentials for themselves.

TC
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PostSubject: some stuff   Sat May 17, 2008 11:36 am

hey tc—

so often, theological discussions become too antagonistic and adversarial, and so i’ve been trying to paint the right pictures to others to minimize this (it seems to be the nature of the blogosphere beast). so, imagine you and i working side by side on a jesus-oriented ministry of your choosing, like serving in a soup line, or building on a habitat for humanity site, and having this discussion.

what in the world do you think peter meant when he said/wrote, christ went to calvary to bring us back to god? in my worldview, one can’t separate oneself from god, so there’s no ‘bringing back.’ one can, however lose one’s awareness of god (and you notice, i’m not even asking about the nature of god here, because that’s a whole different discussion!).

i’m not sure i would equate ‘orthopraxy’ with ‘lifestyle,’ although you may have something, there. let me think about it more. if one’s orthopraxy is informed (properly or otherwise) by one’s orthodoxy, what might we infer about a person’s beliefs based on their lifestyle? what constitutes ‘proper’ informing?

‘christ’s true nature’ is the work of a library’s worth of writing already. i’m sorry i brought it up…

what is your understanding of ‘hope?’ what do you need ‘hope’ for? what does the resurrection give you ‘hope’ for, or in? how is this manifested in your praxis (or as you said earlier, lifestyle)? (‘hope,’ for me, by the way, is ‘belief that something good will come of this, even though things don’t look so good right now. it’s a focus on ‘what i think things ought to be like” and away from ‘what i think things are really like.’ but don’t let me influence your answer…)

i left a comment on parchment and pen about ‘teaching’ here:

peace—

scott
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Sun May 18, 2008 4:32 pm

scott gray wrote:
hey tc—

so often, theological discussions become too antagonistic and adversarial, and so i’ve been trying to paint the right pictures to others to minimize this (it seems to be the nature of the blogosphere beast). so, imagine you and i working side by side on a jesus-oriented ministry of your choosing, like serving in a soup line, or building on a habitat for humanity site, and having this discussion.

what in the world do you think peter meant when he said/wrote, christ went to calvary to bring us back to god? in my worldview, one can’t separate oneself from god, so there’s no ‘bringing back.’ one can, however lose one’s awareness of god (and you notice, i’m not even asking about the nature of god here, because that’s a whole different discussion!).

Are you of the moral theory of Calvary?

Quote :
i’m not sure i would equate ‘orthopraxy’ with ‘lifestyle,’ although you may have something, there. let me think about it more. if one’s orthopraxy is informed (properly or otherwise) by one’s orthodoxy, what might we infer about a person’s beliefs based on their lifestyle? what constitutes ‘proper’ informing?

I think is quite evident that a person's lifestyle is grounded on their belief system.

Quote :
‘christ’s true nature’ is the work of a library’s worth of writing already. i’m sorry i brought it up…

what is your understanding of ‘hope?’ what do you need ‘hope’ for? what does the resurrection give you ‘hope’ for, or in? how is this manifested in your praxis (or as you said earlier, lifestyle)? (‘hope,’ for me, by the way, is ‘belief that something good will come of this, even though things don’t look so good right now. it’s a focus on ‘what i think things ought to be like” and away from ‘what i think things are really like.’ but don’t let me influence your answer…)

i left a comment on parchment and pen about ‘teaching’ here:

peace—

scott

Our Christian hope is a new creation in glory.
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Tue May 20, 2008 4:25 pm

speaking in tongues. do you mean another language other then your own? If so, then by the OPs logic, the Pope is a heretic. doing masses in latin ect proves it.
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PostSubject: Re: I think anyone who prays in tongues is a heretic   Tue May 20, 2008 4:30 pm

brassplayersrockjr wrote:
speaking in tongues. do you mean another language other then your own? If so, then by the OPs logic, the Pope is a heretic. doing masses in latin ect proves it.

A language unknown to the utterer...
Its suggested in 1 Cor 12 that "ecstatic utterances" means that not only formed languages but "sounds" are also considered (note that the pagans also did this while worshipping their gods)
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