Is drinking alcohol bad

Laminar
Postulant

Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 5

Subject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad

Thu May 22, 2008 11:03 pm

maflynn wrote:

Laminar wrote:

Nathan wrote:

In a nutshell:

Okay to drink alcohol, not okay to get drunk.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think alcohol should not have a vice on one's life, but I don't believe that my being drunk 4 or 5 times in the past year is by any means sinful. Sure, alcohol can cloud one's judgement and make it easier to sin, but I never got to that point.

I disagree, and I believe you are in error. Take Galatians 5:21 which I have quoted above. Using your logic, its ok to bow down to an idol on a few occasions, or have a couple of fits of rage instead of a pattern of fits of rage.

Not entirely. Bowing down to an idol even once is wrong. Going into a fit of rage even once is wrong. Getting drunk once does not mean that alcohol has a vice on my life, which is how I've interpreted "drunkenness." If you interpret "drunkenness" to mean simply being under the influence of alcohol, then yes, it would be wrong, but in the context of the verses, I don't believe you can say without question that your interpretation is correct. The passage you quoted from Proverbs makes it pretty clear that the issue being discussed is not alcohol, but going astray because of it.

Quote:

Besides getting drunk 4 or 5 times a year is a pattern of drunkenness by your own definition.

I don't believe that I ever defined "pattern." If you define pattern as "happens more than once," then yes, I have a pattern of getting drunk. But alcohol by no means has a vice on my life. I am not dependent on it. I might have one beer a week, and I rarely get to the point where I can't legally drive.

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The Bible shows by example in the OT the folly of getting drunk and by clear instruction in the NT.

I agree that alcohol is very dangerous. It can lead to a lot of problems for the overindulger and those around him or her, but I can assure you that I have no such problems with it. Simply being wise about where, how much, and with whom you consume makes it much easier to make good decisions.

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I'm not trying to sound like some sort of holier then thou SOB, but I did want to point out the view that getting drunk is what most Christians accept as what this passage (and others) are condemning, not a long drawn out pattern of alcohol abuse

I appreciate your tone and civility, but I'd also like to point out that at certain points in history, Christians believed the Bible told them the world was flat, that slavery was okay, that the earth is 6000 years old (uh-oh, did I just say that?), etc., so I take what the church as a whole believes with a grain of salt.

maflynn
Hieromonk

Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154

Subject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad

Fri May 23, 2008 6:40 am

Laminar wrote:

Not entirely. Bowing down to an idol even once is wrong. Going into a fit of rage even once is wrong. Getting drunk once does not mean that alcohol has a vice on my life, which is how I've interpreted "drunkenness." If you interpret "drunkenness" to mean simply being under the influence of alcohol, then yes, it would be wrong, but in the context of the verses, I don't believe you can say without question that your interpretation is correct. The passage you quoted from Proverbs makes it pretty clear that the issue being discussed is not alcohol, but going astray because of it.

I'm not really going to argue the point, its not like we're dealing with sexual immorality or heresy besides whom am I to condemn you when I have plenty of failings.

I'll say this: That list that I quoted that condemns drunkenness (and other such lists in the NT) is included in behavior that is sinful to do even once, which you seem to agree with. Within the context of the scriptures and the natural inclination to understanding those verses would be to consider this. If its wrong to do the stuff mentioned just before it, and just after it, why would it be ok to get drunk even once? To put it another way, it is sinful to be envious and to participate in an orgy but its ok to get drunk 3 or 4 times a year . That really does seem skewed to me.

Quote:

I appreciate your tone and civility, but I'd also like to point out that at certain points in history, Christians believed the Bible told them the world was flat, that slavery was okay, that the earth is 6000 years old (uh-oh, did I just say that?), etc., so I take what the church as a whole believes with a grain of salt.

Thanks

Let me dissect your contentions in order.

The Bible says nothing about the world being flat. That was Man's own interpretation. Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7 for instance. Look even in our enlightened age. Sunrise occurred at 4:15am this morning, but does that mean we believe the sun revolves around the earth? Why wouldn’t we use a more accurate term?

Slavery is not approved in the Bible and this has always been one of the marks that critics of the Bible use. Rather it has allowances to treat slaves humanely in fact Deuteronomy makes it clear that God did not want Israelites to remain in slavery but rather freed after 7 years. In the NT, slavery references are in context to the times. It makes no such proclamation that slavery was okay. Finally the whole slavery issues in the western civilization ended because Christians saw that it was wrong.

I’m one of those people that take a very literal view of the Bible and with that said, the Hebrew word “yom” used the creation account in Genesis can be translated for a 24 hour period or an epic or an undefined long time, its not completely clear in the context of the creation which one it is.

You raise another issue by inference of the creation remark. You need to take the Bible as a complete work of God, penned by Man yes, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. 2nd Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” So that means even the accounts of supernatural phenomenon such as the creation are scripture and God-breathed. If you start rejecting portions of the Bible because they don’t make sense then you’ll have nothing left. For instance, Genesis details the creation and that God spoke the world into being and nearly every book in the Bible has some super-natural occurrence that cannot be explained which is why faith is so important.

Is the world 6,000 years old, maybe, is it 6 gazillion years old, maybe. I really have no idea and to be honest how does that impact my relationship with Jesus. I accept on faith that God spoke the universe into existence whether it took 6 days or 6 epics.

I kind of got off on a tangent there Smile

Nathan
Xenophile

Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 147

Subject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad Fri May 23, 2008 4:17 pm

I think that if we were all in the same room discussing this we would come to pretty close conclusions about what "drunkeness" actually is. _________________ \_ My blog: Discipulus Scripturae

Laminar
Postulant

Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 5

Subject: Re: Is drinking alcohol bad

Sat May 24, 2008 10:53 am

maflynn wrote:

I'm not really going to argue the point, its not like we're dealing with sexual immorality

[

I was actually considering starting a thread on that to really get these boards going.

Quote:

I'll say this: That list that I quoted that condemns drunkenness (and other such lists in the NT) is included in behavior that is sinful to do even once, which you seem to agree with. Within the context of the scriptures and the natural inclination to understanding those verses would be to consider this. If its wrong to do the stuff mentioned just before it, and just after it, why would it be ok to get drunk even once? To put it another way, it is sinful to be envious and to participate in an orgy but its ok to get drunk 3 or 4 times a year . That really does seem skewed to me.

It's my view that God does what He does for good reasons. We're not to bow down to idols because that involves putting something or someone above God. We're not to participate in orgies because God created an appropriate (and arguably more satisfying) context for sex. By this same logic I see God condemning drunkenness because it's an addictive behavior that can lead to all kind of trouble in someone's life.

Quote:

Thanks

Let me dissect your contentions in order.

The Bible says nothing about the world being flat. That was Man's own interpretation. Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7 for instance. Look even in our enlightened age. Sunrise occurred at 4:15am this morning, but does that mean we believe the sun revolves around the earth? Why wouldn’t we use a more accurate term?

Slavery is not approved in the Bible and this has always been one of the marks that critics of the Bible use. Rather it has allowances to treat slaves humanely in fact Deuteronomy makes it clear that God did not want Israelites to remain in slavery but rather freed after 7 years. In the NT, slavery references are in context to the times. It makes no such proclamation that slavery was okay. Finally the whole slavery issues in the western civilization ended because Christians saw that it was wrong.

I agree with what you're saying. My point is that at times in history, the larger church body was incredibly wrong in its interpretation of scripture, so the fact that "most Christians" believe something does not necessarily mean it's dogma.

Quote:

I’m one of those people that take a very literal view of the Bible and with that said, the Hebrew word “yom” used the creation account in Genesis can be translated for a 24 hour period or an epic or an undefined long time, its not completely clear in the context of the creation which one it is.

You raise another issue by inference of the creation remark. You need to take the Bible as a complete work of God, penned by Man yes, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. 2nd Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” So that means even the accounts of supernatural phenomenon such as the creation are scripture and God-breathed. If you start rejecting portions of the Bible because they don’t make sense then you’ll have nothing left. For instance, Genesis details the creation and that God spoke the world into being and nearly every book in the Bible has some super-natural occurrence that cannot be explained which is why faith is so important.

Is the world 6,000 years old, maybe, is it 6 gazillion years old, maybe. I really have no idea and to be honest how does that impact my relationship with Jesus. I accept on faith that God spoke the universe into existence whether it took 6 days or 6 epics.

With this, I agree wholeheartedly.