| | Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? |    |
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maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
 |  Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation?  Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:54 pm | |
| I'm using some of this stuff for my blog - hopefully nobody objects. Its taken a few different twists and turns as I've researched, prayed and looked for passages.
Anyways to Martin's point we have
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
So while others who seemingly showed evidence of Christianity, they did not remain and thus failed this one passage.
I think it boils down to that only God knows our hearts and whether we are truly sincere in our profession of faith. Again see Romans 10:9 which states that | Quote: | | That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. |
No easy answer and it really does fall along the lines of the whole Calvinism/Arminianism as Nathan so aptly put it. |
|  | | rogermugs
theologer
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 355
Location : east yo
| | | | | maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:11 pm | |
| | rogermugs wrote: | | maflynn wrote: | | I'm using some of this stuff for my blog - hopefully nobody objects. |
I for one, am extremely pleased that this is helping you generate ideas... |
Thanks, I have a couple more ideas for topics but those require more in depth Bible studying. Mostly involving end times prophecies. I'm drawn to the book of Revelation and to Daniel - always was since I became a Christian. Time however is a luxury I do not have so it will take me a little while to bang them out.
The benefit of this, is my spending more time in the word and less time on the net  |
| | | | Martin
Novice
Joined : 13 May 2008
Posts : 48
Location : North Carolina
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:44 pm | |
| | maflynn wrote: | | Only God can truly judge if you're a "true" Christian or a professing Christian - which by the way doesn't that make you a true Christian |
==True, only God is the judge. However in His Word He has given us "the clues" who the true believers are (Jn 8:31, 1Jn 2:19, 1Jn 3:9-10, Gal 5:19-21).
| mayflynn wrote: | | Back to the point, I've known a number of people who seemingly had a vibrant faith, and the fruits of the spirit and was genuine in wanting to please God - as genuine as we humans can tell. Shockingly some of these folks have either renounced the belief, fell into sin and gave up on God or just thought God didn't care anymore. |
==That does not mean that they were truly saved. Keep in mind that the folks in Matthew 7:21-23 did miracles in the Name, preached the Name, and cast out demons in the Name of Jesus. Yet they were lost. A person can look good from the outside. They can go through all the right motions and do all the right things. However that does not make a person saved. A person is saved when they repent and turn to Jesus in faith.
A person who finally falls away or walks away is not, and never was, a true believer (Col 1:21-23, Jn 8:31, 1Jn 2:19).
_________________
Martin.
The Scroll |
| | | | Martin
Novice
Joined : 13 May 2008
Posts : 48
Location : North Carolina
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:45 pm | |
| | rogermugs wrote: | | you think so? even if the true christian goes through some horrible experience and then decides to renounce God? Would take the stand of still a christian, or he never was (i.e. he was just professing)? |
==I think Scripture would say that he/she was never a true Christian (Jn 8:31, 1Jn 2:19, etc).
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Martin.
The Scroll |
| | | | Martin
Novice
Joined : 13 May 2008
Posts : 48
Location : North Carolina
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:54 pm | |
| | rogermugs wrote: | i agree there is no easy answer.
just tough to sort through what we thought of people who "seemed" to really have it together. |
==I think there is a really easy answer to this question. Can a true Christian perish or be lost again? The answer is no.
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" -Jn 6:39
The term translated "lose" in that verse is the same word normally translated perish. Our Lord is answering the all important question in the negative. No true believer (vs37) will ever perish (Jn 10:26-30). It will not happen.
As for folks who "seemed to really have it together", I would point out that appearances can be deceiving. Look at the folks in Matthew 7:21-23. From the outside they had it all together. However, like the Pharisee, what people saw on the outside was not what was on the inside. While they did all the right things on the outside, on the inside they were spiritually dead in sin (Matt 23:25-28 ). This can be a very painful truth, I admit. However I don't think it should be as controversial as it is. The more I have studied the Scriptures about this issue over the years the more amazed I am about how clear the Scriptures seem to be. Sure, there are verses that can cause some problems. However when those verses are examined in their context and when those verses are understood in the light of very clear and uncontradictable statements of Scripture (Rom 8:29-30), most of the "problem" goes away.
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Martin.
The Scroll |
| | | | maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:14 am | |
| | Martin wrote: | ==I think there is a really easy answer to this question. Can a true Christian perish or be lost again? The answer is no.
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" -Jn 6:39
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I've come full circle on this topic, after going through the scriptures, I believe those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ and became a true believer cannot lose their salvation. John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:28-31, Romans 8:38-39 Of course its not what I think but what God thinks. To that end, I'll be working out my salvation with fear and trembling,. |
| | | | elshaddai
Word Weaver
Joined : 10 May 2008
Posts : 17
Location : Minneapolis, MN
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:35 am | |
| | maflynn wrote: | | I've come full circle on this topic, after going through the scriptures, I believe those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ and became a true believer cannot lose their salvation. John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:28-31, Romans 8:38-39 Of course its not what I think but what God thinks. To that end, I'll be working out my salvation with fear and trembling,. |
Then does the Hebrews passage refer to Christians in name only - those who didn't really believe - or does it mean that apostasy of the believers will be burnt to nothing (cf. 1 Cor 3:12) like weeds, but still redeemed in the end on the foundation of Christ?
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ElShaddai Edwards
http://heissufficient.net |
| | | | maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:24 am | |
| Its a difficult passage to be sure.
My first question regarding Hebrews 6 is who is the intended audience for the letter and more specifically this passage. gentile Christians or Jewish Christians.
After reading it, and considering the issues that the first century Jewish Christians dealt with, its plausible that the author is warning Jewish believers that the mind set of continual sacrifices and works like from the old covenant do not hold true with the new covenant, i.e., "to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again"
I also believe the english translations of this passage miss the mark somewhat at conveying some of the meaning. I'm not a greek expert but a quick search of this passage shows quite a number of indepth analysis showing some interesting concepts regarding the words fall away and such.
Finally we need to consider the fact that scripture will not conflict with scripture and there's many passages of salvation by grace and God protecting his flock. We then need to dig a little deeper on these types of passages to help better discern the meaning. |
| | | | mschellman
Postulant
Age : 37
Joined : 02 Aug 2008
Posts : 10
Location : Minneapolis
| | Subject: Saved and Unsaved - Eternal Security Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:12 pm | |
| If I repent of my sins and accept Jesus as my Savior, I am supposedly saved. If at a later point (20 years - lets say), I renounce my faith and become a muslim. Was I ever really saved in the first place?
Maybe this quesiton will look a bit different if we use a more common example. Let me ask another quesiton.
If I make a promise to pick you up from work tomorrow (and intend to do it), but when the time comes, I have a change of heart and decide to do something different. Was I really sincere?
How does this look different from the temporal limited point of view and the eternal perspective.
From our point of view we see people lose their salvation, from God's point of view He see's our commitment at the time - however sincere, was not of a sort that would last.
Consider the parable of the four soils (Matt 13:1-33). The rocky ground receives the Word with Great Joy - it grows a plant, but its roots do not sink deep and it whithers in the heat of the day. Some people may be rocky ground, or have thorns and thistles in their lives. It doesn't mean that life cannot begin in them and flourish for a time, but they will not last (unless they change). |
| | | | rogermugs
theologer
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 355
Location : east yo
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:49 am | |
| but the problem with the view that a christian who turns from the Lord was never really saved - means that ANY of us could be not saved... we have no way of knowing if we'll persevere... we hope we will... but cant be sure...
i feel like while we can still say we have 'assurance of salvation' it really is no assurance at all if we might have never been believers in the first place...
maybe this is the 'fear and trembling' - either way... if you turn from the Lord, youre in trouble.... whether you were a christian in the first place or not... you're in trouble..
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"sometimes a little more than you think you want is still a little less than you actually need"
"brilliance seems too often masked by stupid people" |
| | | | mschellman
Postulant
Age : 37
Joined : 02 Aug 2008
Posts : 10
Location : Minneapolis
| | Subject: It ain't over till its over - but God sees all ends! Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:13 am | |
| Rogermugs wrote | Quote: | | but the problem with the view that a christian who turns from the Lord was never really saved - means that ANY of us could be not saved... we have no way of knowing if we'll persevere... we hope we will... but cant be sure... |
I am not saying that the Christian was never really saved. I believe there is a significant difference between the temporal and the eternal perspective. Say a person has thorns and thistles in their life that have the potential to choke out the Word. When the seed hits the ground we see the new life that is starting. We are unaware of the thorns and thistles that threaten to eventually choke out the new life of the beliver (cares and concerns of this world). From the eternal perspective, God knows the eventual effect these thorns will have on the beliver. We are encouraged to cast our cares upon Him, becasue he cares for us (1 Peter 5:7). But we have to chose to do so. Weeds are present in all of our lives, as are rocks - but we can get rid of them. Only God knows how we will handle these impediments. Parables are not prophecies - one need not be rocky ground. The final story of our life is not written until we are dead |
| | | | rjsher
Postulant
Joined : 06 Aug 2008
Posts : 6
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:14 pm | |
| | maflynn wrote: | | What's your take on it. |
1 Corinthians 10:1-13 "For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry." We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." |
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