| Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? |    |
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maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
 |  Subject: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation?  Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:38 pm | |
| The title says it all?
Most mainstream Protestant denominations say no.
Catholics say yes, i.e., unconfessed mortal sins.
some Pentecostal denominations say yes.
What's your take on it. |
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ebuddy
Postulant
Joined : 21 May 2008
Posts : 15
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:13 am | |
| | maflynn wrote: | The title says it all?
Most mainstream Protestant denominations say no.
Catholics say yes, i.e., unconfessed mortal sins.
some Pentecostal denominations say yes.
What's your take on it. |
This is a tough one. I've never bought off on the "mortal sin" bit because the Bible clearly states the wage of ONE sin is death. There is little to suggest one sin is weightier than another, only how to be saved. With regard to "once saved, always saved" there is Scriptural evidence that; "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." and "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
What may be at question here is whether or not you truly believe in Him and as such, included in the above. I say this because Scripture also suggests that upon accepting Jesus as your Savior, your life is anew. Repentance is critical and it is more than saying you're sorry though if you've come to truly hate sin, you likely feel great remorse for your past. We are all sinful, but if you're not growing you're dying IMO. In other words, it may not matter to be concerned about all this as much as continued growth. Seek and ye shall find.
I remember my brother's adult baptism. He came up to me, hair still dripping wet saying; "I don't feel any different. I may have to go under again, I'm not sure it took."  |
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maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:32 am | |
| Then there's Philippians 2:12-13
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
If we are saved by grace why do we need to work out our salvation, conversely, if we fail to work out our salvation does that mean we go to Hell. How does grace fit in at that point, since the book of Romans is very clear that it is by grace that we are saved.
I believe we are saved by grace and we cannot lose our salvation but admittedly the wording of the passage can imply works over grace. |
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elshaddai
Word Weaver
Joined : 10 May 2008
Posts : 17
Location : Minneapolis, MN
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:46 pm | |
| I always understood Hebrews 6:4-8 to address those who were once Christians and then fell aside to apostasy:
| Quote: | | 4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. 7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it, and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end. (HCSB) |
That seems to suggest that if you willfully accept and then reject the gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit, you are doomed like the thorns and thistles.
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ElShaddai Edwards
http://heissufficient.net |
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rogermugs
theologer
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 355
Location : east yo
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:07 pm | |
| i'm never quite sure how to nail this one down.
in order to ever live like a changed christian, i imagine you have to believe and have some assurance that you are a christian.
i think there is assurance of salvation. and I think not visibly walking with the Lord does not negate your acceptance of the gift of the cross. you're missing out on other things, but not eternal life (in my opinion).
but that said, the "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" also seems to have something to say about this. That is, this is THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION you can/will EVER make in your life. If indeed eternal damnation is at stake, then you want to be (pardon the pun) damn sure you're saved.
I disagree with those who say "he's not walking with the Lord anymore, therefore he must never have a been a christian at all," this is no clearer or better than a belief in the possibly of apostacy.
but in my opinion its not all that worth worrying about.
if you're unsure about your salvation, you're probably in trouble anyway. If you're not walking with the Lord, you've got troubles anyway.
say the prayer (rom 10:9), love the Lord, live a life reflecting grace, and then I dont think you have anything to worry about.
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"sometimes a little more than you think you want is still a little less than you actually need"
"brilliance seems too often masked by stupid people" |
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maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:28 pm | |
| | elshaddai wrote: | I always understood Hebrews 6:4-8 to address those who were once Christians and then fell aside to apostasy:
| Quote: | | 4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. 7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it, and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end. (HCSB) |
That seems to suggest that if you willfully accept and then reject the gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit, you are doomed like the thorns and thistles. |
While I cannot dispute the scripture this passage confuses and concerns me. So in a moment of emotional turmoil, I reject Jesus and God, seemingly walking away from Christianity, then get hit by a bus 5 minutes later. I'm going to hell? What about the Holy Spirit and God's promise never to leave me?
If you can lose your salvation you start focusing on what not to do, instead of what to do and it does become work focused and not grace. I'll be honest though that passage is there and I don't have an answer. |
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Nathan
Xenophile
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 147
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:06 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? |
Yes.
A person must choose to turn to Christ for salvation, he can just as easily turn away. I've met a few people who've made that decision. They were interesting people, but it always makes me sad and depressed to think about them.
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\_ My blog: Discipulus Scripturae |
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maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:38 am | |
| | Nathan wrote: | | Quote: | | Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? |
Yes.
A person must choose to turn to Christ for salvation, he can just as easily turn away. I've met a few people who've made that decision. They were interesting people, but it always makes me sad and depressed to think about them.
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Of course it doesn't matter what I believe but I've generally held the position that one cannot because God's grace is sufficient but if I decide to walk away from God, have nothing to do with him for the rest of my life. Why would I want to spend time with him in eternity.
I dunno, there's no easy answer and this subject is such that you can make a case either way. |
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Nathan
Xenophile
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 147
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:39 am | |
| If man was given the freewill to choose disobedience which lead to our sinful state. Wouldn't it make sense then that the same freewill allows us to choose whether or not to turn to God for our salvation, within the framework which he created for that purpose? I'm not totally committed to this understanding, but I don't have a better way of comprehending things.
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\_ My blog: Discipulus Scripturae |
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rogermugs
theologer
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 355
Location : east yo
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Nathan
Xenophile
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 147
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:17 am | |
| I just had a really interesting conversation with TC about this. Mostly along the lines of the whole Calvinism/Arminianism debate. Pretty crazy stuff, theology.
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\_ My blog: Discipulus Scripturae |
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Martin
Novice
Joined : 13 May 2008
Posts : 48
Location : North Carolina
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:01 pm | |
| | maflynn wrote: | The title says it all?
Most mainstream Protestant denominations say no.
Catholics say yes, i.e., unconfessed mortal sins.
some Pentecostal denominations say yes.
What's your take on it. |
Just a quick note. I think passages like John 6:37-40 rule out the chance that a true Christian could ever be lost again. Professing Christians can be lost again, true Christians cannot (Heb 6:4-6, 10:14).
I can expand on those thoughts later. Got to go for now... 
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Martin.
The Scroll |
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rogermugs
theologer
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 355
Location : east yo
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:49 pm | |
| | Martin wrote: |
Just a quick note. I think passages like John 6:37-40 rule out the chance that a true Christian could ever be lost again. Professing Christians can be lost again, true Christians cannot (Heb 6:4-6, 10:14).
I can expand on those thoughts later. Got to go for now... |
you think so? even if the true christian goes through some horrible experience and then decides to renounce God? Would take the stand of still a christian, or he never was (i.e. he was just professing)?
_________________
"sometimes a little more than you think you want is still a little less than you actually need"
"brilliance seems too often masked by stupid people" |
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maflynn
Hieromonk
Joined : 20 May 2008
Posts : 154
| | Subject: Re: Can A Christian Lose His Salvation? Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:53 pm | |
| | Martin wrote: | | Just a quick note. I think passages like John 6:37-40 rule out the chance that a true Christian could ever be lost again. Professing Christians can be lost again, true Christians cannot (Heb 6:4-6, 10:14). |
Only God can truly judge if you're a "true" Christian or a professing Christian - which by the way doesn't that make you a true Christian
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Back to the point, I've known a number of people who seemingly had a vibrant faith, and the fruits of the spirit and was genuine in wanting to please God - as genuine as we humans can tell. Shockingly some of these folks have either renounced the belief, fell into sin and gave up on God or just thought God didn't care anymore.
I cannot judge if they were genuine, but I can tell they acted more Christ like then I do and to see them fall away is scary because if it could happen to them... |
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rogermugs
theologer
Joined : 09 May 2008
Posts : 355
Location : east yo
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